Is Matey Kaziyski second class player?

Of course, they will be subtitles in my team . My wing-spikers will be Tedor Salparov and Verbov - the setter will be pleased !

Man it is obvious that 50% of brasilian kids in the internet are trolls. You had many examples here. Dont read his posts, they see only brasil, so... No, his thesis are so stupid, i cant say anything more.

raylight,open your eyes to the truth,man - he's a fifth class player.You're the last guy here,who refuses to see it... ?

Matey is the best wing-spiker in the world, but I think if you have also Murilo, Giba and Dante you'll must have a systeme with a lot of chances every game.. You can't afford holding these players on the bench, they will leave after 1 year ?

It's indeed a question of system and volleyball philosophy. Kaziyski is probably the best spiker on the wing-spiker position these days and one of the best of all time.
Nevertheless, the best team in history, which I think was the brazilian national team during 2000-2008, woud not have been as strong with Kaziyski instead of Giba or Dante (or Murilo now). This is because he doesn't fit in a team that identifies itself over its defense, speed and overall teamplay.
On the other hand, he fits perfectly in a team like Trentino, with players like Juantorena, Stokr, Sokolov... Trentino does not play as fast as other teams, but simply dominates with athletism and power.
Personally I prefer the playing style that teams like Brazil, Argentina and asian teams show, because it requires a higher level of skill. When I watch matches of Russia, Bulgaria and Cuba I'm always impressed, but the brazilian NT some years ago provided always something special, magical on the floor.

Where do you put Netherlands of the 90s and USA of the 80s? I don't think that the ability to spike consistently from third meter against triple block with success can be classified as "lower level of skill", where the spikers of magic Brazil were constantly against single block thanks to Sergio, Ricardo and Marcelinho

Thank you, Nagor ? He trolls indeed ?

Considering the style of play of Brazil the answer is obvious. He would be fourth choice in Rezende's team, if you don't understand why perhaps you have to learn about volleyball a bit more.

Explain your thesis. If you don't defend your thesis, you need to learn about argumentation a bit more. My thesis is that being superior spiker and server, Matey can carry any team to victory even if he has to spike 30 pts, he can spike the hardest points with the greatest consistency. If you mean that Brazil with their reception and setting actually don't need such high level of skill in spiking and that in their team ball control is more important, to be able to defend, Matey will not fit into their style, but still with him on the court Brazil will be stronger. You and the guy fit into the pattern of thinking constained by style."He will not fit in this style, he will make the team weaker". If you increase spike efficiency and serving efficiency by putting him on the court / and with Ricardo setting his spiking efficiency will be sky high / you will have better team and more wins. Brazil after 2007 and Brazil inWC are proof of that. After olympics they broke the style but put more efficient spiker in the face of Visotto and continued to win. Visotto should be 3rd choice in Brazil, according to your ideas, but he is FIRST. If Dante was in form, to have second powerful spiker, Brazil would have win both the league and the cup. Complete masters of the ball Giba and Murilo fit perfectly, like Theo, and the team is WEAKER. I rest my case

Not always the most balanced team wins. The most efficient does. Either with fast volleyball in which every attacker has a lot of options were to spike / Brazil 2002-2006 / or with the most gifted physically spikers who can have more angles to the shot, more power and faster arms. Balance can help you stay in the game is one weapon fails, but if you have the most powerful weapon, you can outshoot anyone when it is not failed. The good old Cuneo vs Trentino argument ?

You and the guy fit into the pattern of thinking constained by style."He will not fit in this style, he will make the team weaker"

I didn't say that. Perhaps for you absence of Matey in the team means team will be weaker. In my opinion Brazil wouldn't be weaker with him, but won't be weaker without him.

Anyway you always praise Matey for spiking and serve, and I get it, as he is great in those elements. But volleyball is something more than this. That's why Brazil, even if won't win World Cup is still the best, that's why Cuba is loosing with Argentina's first squad [i'm not counting Pan Am Games, when ARG played without trio CQD] and Russia for example struggled with Argentina and only Argentineans lack of experience made this match easier for them.
Anyway let's back to the style of play. You mentioned Vissotto. I'm not big fan of him, even if he played well yesterday. I would see Theo or Wallace as first, but in Rezende's team experience is advance, that's why he is still first. But if you want to see if Vissotto fits to Ricardo's style of play my advice is to find some matches of Voley Futuro from last season. And I will let you to think why Leo had to leave Voley Futuro after the season. Marlon and Bruno play not so fast like Ricardo, so it's not so bad in BRA for now. But he is not a leader. Brazil base their game on good serve, not as powerful as Matey's, but good enough to score aces or put good block. Kaziyski is not very good blocker [if someone likes to compare Kurek and Kaziyski, Matey should take a lesson from Kurek when it comes to block ?]. That's the first thing which makes him not very good for style of play. Second thing good, balanced reception. Did you know Dante was as weak as Kurek and Kaziyski in reception and Rezende told him he need ti improve otherwise he can forget about NT? Yes, this "one-of-the-best" Dante. If Rezende says someone like Dante such things, you think he would make exception for Matey? Why? He has no better technique in attack than Dante. And defense. It's not only Sergio, it's for example young Bruno, who is the best in defense from all setters [can't give you stats, but that's not a lie]. Whole in the reception, whole in defense, let's say smaller, but still whole in block. Do you think Rezende would make exception for Matey and change whole system, because he is an incredible spiker and server? No he won't. Because he can choose more balanced player, not with "god-status" and keep team winning. That's what he does for years. For Brazil important is TEAM, not one incredible player.

His blocking has improved a lot,actually - check his stats from 09/10 season and 10/11,11/12 so far.
@handan - Osmany is fresher than Matey,not better.AND Osmany has improved absolutely every element since coming to Trento,so Rado can't be that bad,right?

Yes,I've seen him play in Russia.His serve was good,but not as great as it is now.What else - mindless spiking,no block(it's still not good,but has improved a little,imo,I have no stats to prove it) and his defense and digging are definitely much better now.And because of the rest that you just mentioned(wasn't it 2 years?),plus no involvement in his NT(not his choice,he can't be blamed for that) he's much more energized than Matey.
"I wouldn't say his improvement is only because of Rado .I think it is more because of getting playing time ,gaining experience." - That could be said about every player in any team ?

@handan - he did spike mindlessly.I'm sure a lot of people would agree that Russian league has changed a lot in the past 3-4 seasons,when mindless spiking was the rule(with a few exceptions,mostly foreigners - Brazilians,Amaricans,etc.).It's still based on strong spike and raw strength ,but not as much as before.Osmany,5 years ago was just was another "hitter".I don't know why Rado chose him for Trento,I guess he saw his potential,like he did with Jan,Sokolov,Djuric and others.I think the more interesting question is,if he was such a great player before,why didn't other,better coaches,want him for their teams then?

Don't turn it into emotional conversation. Brazil made miracle in volleyball. They brought up this magical system of play with defense, reception, speed and incredible synchronization, with which they won a lot, but the system didn't last. Why? Why Brazil had to play that way to win at first place? Because they lacked the physical parameters of Netherlands or Russia to do classical volleyball. They compensated with a lot more training in the gym and practice in the hall, acquiring more skills to do this beautiful volleyball, needed to COMPENSATE for the physique difference. This was very strong, but fragile way of playing. Taller and stronger team with good reception could have stopped them. There were signs in WL2006 and WL2007, but no other team believed they can //classical Russian case // USA stopped them in 2008, and Brazil returned to top in 2009 and 2010 with different style. Why? Because they had Visotto, Sidao and Lucao. Because they could. Trento style is much easier to achieve than Brazil style, the reason why Rezende is bigger than Stoychev. Much easier and therefore - more reliable. If only Visotto could be predictable opposite, Brazil wouldn't have lost anything in the last two years.

That is the whole discussion - the basics of volleyball understanding. That's why you can't justify statements as "Matey Kaziyski is second class player", just because he is not perfect in everything, the same way Juantorena or Wijsmans can't be put on that place. The same way you can't say Trentino has no titles, because it has.

"they lacked the physical parameters of Netherlands or Russia to do classical volleyball. They compensated with a lot more training in the gym and practice in the hall, acquiring more skills to do this beautiful volleyball, needed to COMPENSATE for the physique difference." In synopses - when you have lemons,make lemonade ?
@champion - Are you quoting Hanna Montana LOL Sorry,when I hear "keep climbing"...a friend of mine abused my ears with this song a few summers ago and I'm still recovering ?

Kaziyski not good in blocking is very old news, Zyta, I hear it all the time, but I don't see it. I see him making single blocks on Dennis // staying forever in the air// on Milijkovic, on Wijsmans. If you mean something else, because ability to block for point is very enhanced in him since 2010. I hear what average receiver he is, but at the same time he had over 60% reception in all key matches in this year - Serie A1 final, Supercup game, WL final round, Bulgaria - Russia match // he had the heaviest load and still with 77% reception and 50% attack constantly vs double or triple Russian block - I can't see how Dante could ever repeat such performance even on drugs and he is top class spiker//

Even if we accept that he is so weak on these two elements, he is still the most wanted player nowadays, Brazil would die of happiness if in 2008 they got him and Clayton, they were so jealous. This is begging the argument - when you are best in the world or close to it in two elements, there is no need to be complete to bring success to your team. That's it. It is harder to be complete, may be more respectful, but not more productive.

Juantorena in several occasions was behind Matey in performance, like final Serie A1, or generally in World Club Championship 2011, but he is not weaker player - the difference in spiking is compensated with phenomenal serving consistency at the highest power of hitting

@raylight: Seriously, you can't say Brazil HAD to play fast. This squad was gifted with several all time best players on every position (Giba, Ricardo, Sergio, Gustavo). Those players made it POSSIBLE to play that unique way.
The reason Bruno Rezende changed his Philosophy a bit, is that most of these players retired or got old.
Btw the only team that was ahead of Brazil in the last WCC was Russia. Now guess how Russia changed their game: Players like Poltavskiy, Kosarev, Bereszko and Kazakov had to leave, Mikhailov, Grankin, Khtey, Apalikov, Spiridonov and Biryukov came.
Would you still say Russia had to change their game due to lacking athletic abilities? I would rather say they finally understood why they didn't win anything the last decade...
ps.: I had to laugh hard when you mentioned the Netherlands '90 in comparison to Brazil.

The "way" the game is played depends a lot on the setter,wouldn't you say,JRios? Is Matey an old-fashioned player in Trento with Rafael,too?

Of course other teams will learn from Brazil and will be a bit more defensive, a bit faster, but this crazy super fast style of play is also very risky, so no one copies them exactly. USA showed several times why. Giba is not the best spiker in the world, he is great player, but not that way. Ricardo is of course best setter and backbone with Sergio, Gustavo - one of the best MB's, Dante, top class player, best on pipe, but the truth about the success of Brazil is more the system, less the players, except the backbone. Every player looks better when fitted into such system. Best players shine despite the system, in more average teams, in teams in which they don't get anything easy.

It's not the fault of the brazilian guys, that the european clubs, even the top clubs, play a slower game. Their strength gets worthless which means, that in club volleyball height and power gets more important. It's like driving a Porsche in the city.
Still, the fast playing style is more successfull. Otherwise Bulgaria wouldn't have failed in every tournement.
Like I said, Kaziyski is the best spiker on his position, due to his height and strength. But his decent reception and bad defense will always make him a limited player. Giba and Murilo will never be as dominant in attacking, especially in club volleyball. But when we are talking about pure skills, they are way ahead.

I don't want to read all the discuss- it has the same sense that discuss if Kurek is good player or not. Matey Kaziyski is one of the best players in the world. Discuss is pointless.

But if You want to know my opinion- just read last @raylight post: I wouldn't write it better.

Damn, don't take this to seriously.
This man is just chauvinistic as hell. But the reality is. All the receivers from Brasil got outplayed by those of Poland, Russia and maybe even Italy. Dante never played much, Murillo had his good games but had really bad ones when it mattered and Giba is playing under the level he used to play.

Compare that to what Kaziyski has won the last couple of years and how he played on every level and it's pretty clear he would be really valuable to a lot of teams. And although, he does have his weaknesses, people make them out to be as if he is the worst in the world at it.
He can block, but isn't the best at it, nor is Giba or Murillo. Passing wise, he is good at it, allthough not as good as Murillo. But he so makes up for that in all the other aspects of the game.

Last thing I would like to say: Giba, Murillo and Dante are all great players, and I can even imagine that coaches would put Kaziyski in fourth place compared to them, for reasons that might not even be about volleyball alone. What I am trying to say is, if I had to be choosing between those guys it would be hard as hell, since they are all great players. Nobody knows what the outcome would be if I choose to select Matey above them. The only way to find out is to put them in a team and see which one wins the most when you rotate them. But they'll probably win everything so even that would probably not be the right solution

@Harleym - What do you mean "for reasons that might not even be about volleyball alone" ? I'm just curious ?

Nothing as in corruption or something.
With volleyball alone I mean skill wise and only looking at the thechnique part and such.

Not volleyball (all though still part of it), like fitting in the team. Creating the right atmosphere, being loyal to people, all that kind of stuff, or just being an evil person, but the right person that is needed for the team. Are you motivational. That is what I meant if you get what I mean.

Thanks ?

That post is the best by you so far, Henrique, gives some food for thought. How do you define "ball control"? What do you mean by it exactly? About time, I am doing a lot of things in parallel, so I have very limited time to write as you can see in this topic

About achievements you don't count club achievements, although clubs are stronger than NT's?

Ohoho, this is Henrique? Man thanks for your commentary. I finally understand, why my father is always talking about old times ?

Well,if anything good came out of this discussion,it was Henrique's return to us ?
Hi,Henrique,congrats on qualifying for the Olympics today! ?
But how about you come back to us full time? I've always appreciated and enjoyed your volleyball knowledge and your sense of humor ?
Thank you for your wishes at the end of the post. ?

Kaziyski not good in blocking is very old news, Zyta, I hear it all the time, but I don't see it. I see him making single blocks on Dennis // staying forever in the air// on Milijkovic, on Wijsmans.

even Bruno 190cm can make single block on Mozdzonek. single blocks happen.

You talking about positive reception but what about perfect? Anyway the point is brazilian or also argentinean style of play is not based on statistics as much european teams. You can show me as many stats as you want, saying that Dante is worse, but it won't change the fact Matey would be fourth.

It would not change your opinion, Zyta, something imaginable like this situation is not fact, it is just speculation

Just like my speculation that Matey Kaziyski will make any team better despite of it's roster and there is no combination in which the team will be stronger without him (except the case of better limited player, which is trivial), even if the other two have terrible reception

Matey is the best. He and Juantorena are better than Murilo and Giba. Giba is too old...

My counter - argument - Except Ricardo Garcia, Gustavo Endres and Sergio Santos, what did the other players of Brazil win with their clubs in Europe?

My counter - argument - Except Ricardo Garcia, Gustavo Endres and Sergio Santos, what did the other players of Brazil win with their clubs in Europe?

What would Matey win in clubs without Grbic, Winiarski, Vissotto, Riad, Juantorena?

every team need a 2 wing... 1 receiver and 1 spiker, Matey is a great spiker, but not all the receivers can be the "best matey's mate"

team alchemy win against simple player... that's why i prefer kaziyski-winiarski to kaziyski-juantoregna tought osamy got some better skills then michael

We can say who is the best spiker, we can say who is the best server, we can say who is the best receiver and so on. "Fit to style" is fallacy in thinking, maximizing your abilities to score points and to avoid getting points is what matters. What we can't say is who is the best player, because we can't define single objective criteria which to incorporate all skills in one.

What did these guys in Trentino win before Stoychev, Matey, Vlado and Nikola?

http://www.legavolley.it/TabellinoGara.asp?IdGara=9815

"What would Matey win in clubs without Grbic, Winiarski, Vissotto, Riad, Juantorena?" @Zyta,he probably would be the first person to agree with you ? You have no idea what a kind and humble guy he is ?

Here's what I've been thinking though,after reading a couple of posts here about teams adopting Brazil's style.I think that no copy will ever be better or as good as the original and also,don't you guys think that with this all the international championships will kind of lose their...charm,if you will?Different countries,different styles - that's what makes it exciting for me.Would I like some speed in our game?Hell yes,but if every team plays the same,then what's the point?

mabye whit Giba, Murilo and Dante Matey would be fourth choice because he don't have a fast game as all that brazilian whit fast setter as Bruno or Ricardo, but it doesn't mean they are better

not being on the starting lineup for the Brazilian national team does not make you a second class player. I defend what this guy says, I don't think Matey would start in front of Murilo/Dante/Giba, and yes it is because of his reception.

uh oh, who is this HCLT guy?

His hard hits make up for his bad passing.

Omg if he thinks Giba blocks better then Matey he is crazy..

What would Matey win in clubs without Grbic, Winiarski, Vissotto, Riad, Juantorena?

Hoho here you are very wrong my friend ? . Trento were nothing more than the average club before Stoychev and Matey came ... The first "strong" Trentino club was build with the backbone of Bulgarians ... They were 4 players and 1 coach. Two of the players (Matey and Nikolov) were the main spikers for the team. Grbic fitted well in this scheme and they won the championship ... Juantorena had a ban to play and Vissoto came in the team next year when they sold Nikolov ... so the team was already strong. Still the vball is colective sport so every player must be one of the best at his position if you want to win what Trentino won last 4 years ...

Hi Henrique, nice to see that you are "back in the game" ?

Матей очень хороший игрок, с великолепными данными, он просто лучший я считаю в Болгарии!!!

NightFox
I mentioned them all together, because with them all Matey got some results. Comparing to your NT, what results you have without players like those I mentioned?

Yes Zyta and I'm telling you that Matey started as backbone of this team so he deserves to play with the best players possible. Matey has not results. Trentino has ... Matey's results are the individual prices which are a lots ... You are turning this conversation to a argue about something fullish which you can answer to your own.

who was the idiot that tell this, ahaha Matey with Juantorena and Murilo are the best wing spiker rigth now, i have to be honest i dont like matey but he deserves his fans and his popularity he is pure ofensive player and sometimes he can reach some balance which is good for him because he turns a complete player i hope to see himin london and the entire bulgarian team

henrique voltasteeeee meu mestre tudo bem pa hahaha olha faz falta que dez uma aulinha aos pts fas do volei hahaham, ja agora porque o anjo na sua forto

gostei è tipo "voltei dos ceus meus fas" haha legal ja agora o que è que acha deste post heing ??

How many players were successful in their national teams and club teams at the same time?

only the NT who have at least 6 champions and 3 greater champions

anyway there's some error in this discussion:

1. I can say the opposite: "whit Matey, Leon and Kurek, those brazilian would be the fourth choice cause of worse attack"

2. I can say the same: "whit Winiarski, Juantoregna, Vujevic and Zaytsev both brazilians and Matey would be fourth choice because of bad reception and block."

3. How compare them in different league? How many top team there are in brazil? Because your reception and block is relative by opponents serve and attak skills...
in the Italian league:
block:
dante 0.25 block/set
giba 0.28
murilo 0.42
matey 0.30

receptions
dante 53%
giba 44%
murilo 43%
matey 36%

but u must count attack and serve

attack
dante 40%
giba 40%
murilo 42%
matey 48%

serve
dante -0.12 efficency
giba -0.16
murilo -0.15
matey -0.05

How many matches per year Matey is playing and how many the Brazilians, Russians or Polish guys?

Itas DIatec Trentino got 21 match on October and on December'll play 9 games (2,8,11,14,18,22,26,29)

My question to Lloy Ball:

We had recently conversation with Brazilian [private information] Henrique CLT who said to me that Matey Kaziyski is very limited player who can only hit and serve, he is second class player and would be fourth choice in Brazil NT after Giba, Murilo and Dante. He told me I can turn to you to ask for opinion. Could you answer me, please, does he has reasons to believe that his thesis is correct?

The answer of Lloy Ball:

I think Matey is a very good volleyball player. I think as his career goes on he will have less success. He felts on his physicality right now. Big jump and strong arm. As those two thing get older I worry that he hasn't developed the technical part of his game enough to stay at a high level. But as of right now, he would start on any national team in the world.

Kjeldhor, count also aces per set and serves per set, this efficiency doesn't show full picture

uhmm..... u want me dead?
number of serve, ace, errors, attac +/+, attack +/-, attack -/-,ecc
that's a crazy work =P

just a sec ?

DANTE http://www.legavolley.it/Statistiche.asp?TipoStat=2.3&Serie=1&AnnoInizio=2000&AnnoFine=2011&Atleta=AMA-DAN-80
MURILO http://www.legavolley.it/Statistiche.asp?TipoStat=2.3&Serie=1&AnnoInizio=2000&AnnoFine=2011&Atleta=END-MUR-81
GIBA http://www.legavolley.it/Statistiche.asp?TipoStat=2.3&Serie=1&AnnoInizio=2000&AnnoFine=2011&Atleta=GOD-GIL-73
KAZIYSKI http://www.legavolley.it/Statistiche.asp?TipoStat=2.3&Serie=1&AnnoInizio=2000&AnnoFine=2011&Atleta=KAZ-MAT-83

if you ask me,Lloy is too kind to waste his time on adjudicating such a pointless and useless dispute..

edit: by the way, welcome back Henrique! aha, now i see what "crazy guy from Brazil" I should blame for the appearance of such useless discussion on this wonderful website ;D